November 21, 2009
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Surviving a Survey

madmariner
Posts: 154
Joined: 2007-06-05

Boating forums are filled with horror stories of people who laid their money down on a dream, only to find later that they were on the hook for thousands of dollars in repairs. Most of us probably don't even need a forum to hear tales like this. We have some friend or acquaintance with a poisonous story to tell.

A survey is at least one line of defense, and so we decided to ask our resident professional to write a story about what to expect in the survey process. Many people balk at the cost, and it is true that it adds to the expense. It is also true that many of us can recognize common problems, such as a neglected engine or a spongy foredeck. But what about hull delamination below the waterline? Or a rotting stringer in the bilge?

On any cruising-length boat, a survey is not only a good idea, it is good business. It gives the buyer information, and information is the best edge in any negotiation, whether you are buying a car, a house or a boat. Any large problem spotted by a surveyor will warrant the cost of the survey. And if there are no large problems, you'll feel immeasurably better about the purchase.

That kind of peace of mind is important when you are spending this kind of money. If you just bought a boat that "sleeps six," you want to be able to sleep.



Anarchy
Posts: 9
Joined: 2007-07-17

It's amazing how few people take into consideration the need for a thorough survey of ANY new vehicle, land/sea/air, without having a competent professional take their time to check it out.

 Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Captain Hugenot! 



BIGtwins
Posts: 11
Joined: 2007-08-13

I have a question.

I have been looking at 22ft Grady's, mostly from the late 80s, for my son. Been looking for a year now - lots of looking and no buying! But that day is coming.

They run $5000 to $20000 and often come with a 200hp single OB (i prefer twins, but this ain't my boat!). On a larger boat, a survey made sense but on a small runabout like this i don't see why i should spend the money. There doesn't seem to be much you couldn't see yourself, plus repairs on a small boat will cost less.

But after reading your story, I wonder if that's a mistake. So the questiojn: how big should a boat be to need a survey?



madmariner
Posts: 154
Joined: 2007-06-05

I think that's really a judgment call.

But given that it's for your son (you didn't say how old, but I'm assuming he still lives at home), I think a survey is a matter of safety, unless you yourself are a marine mechanic or an expert. My sons are young, but I would want to know that hull and engine are safe and are not going to strand them. 

Beyond that, I think much of it depends on what condition the boat and outboard are in and what you plan to do with them. But a survey on a small boat like that is not going to cost a mint. And, I'm assuming you can trailer it, so you won't have the expense of a haul out. If it were me, I'd part with the bucks. Good luck.



Alan_Hugenot
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-06-21

This article is in answer to my survey clients who have expressed a need for a Guide to the Marine Survey Process, explaining the expected procedure. Also many folks logically thought they could skip the survey to save money. But, that logic suffered from a lack of knowledge of the underlying pitfalls. If you have questions regarding surveys or the survey process, motor yachts or offshore cruising, enter a post and I'll get back to you shortly with my opinion.

(if you are interested, my background and experience is listed below)

MY BACKGROUND AT SEA: I went to sea with the Navy 40 years ago during the Vietnam War as a ship's navigator, Later, I acquired my Merchant Marine Captain's license for inspected passenger vessels, and I often deliver motor yachts and motor-sailers by sea off the Pacific coast, and during the last 25 years I have sailed into nearly every port from Anchorage to Acapulco. Over the years I have owned and operated 16 different yachts, and I currently serve as the hired Captain aboard an 81 foot 900hp motor yacht based in San Francisco.

MARINE ENGINEERING & SURVEYING BACKGROUND: My college degree is in Mechanical Engineering, and I have pursued a career as a Naval Architect - Marine Engineer and Marine Surveyor working in design and production departments in shipyards on all three U.S. coasts. Besides my yacht surveying practice as a SAMS Accredited Marine Surveyor, based in San Francisco, California, I also currently provide expert consulting services to the American Bureau of Shipping, on Motor Yachts, Ship Engineering, Naval Engineering, and Offshore Engineering. I also serve as the National Chairman of the Motor Yacht & Service Craft Panel of the Small Craft Committee for the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers (SNAME).

--

Capt. ALAN HUGENOT, AMS®, NAVAL ARCHITECT - MARINE SURVEYOR, Chairman, SNAME Motor Yachts & Service Craft Committee, ASA Sailing Instructor, Alanhugenot@madmariner.com



Alan_Hugenot
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-06-21

Big Twins:

When a boat is under 24-26 feet, the insurance industry does not require a survey, and also allows you to just add the boat to your car or home owner's insurance policy with no survey.

The deciding factor is whether it is wood or fiberglass. If it is fiberglass and under 26 efft it has probably been STORED OUT OF THE WATER on a trailer and has not been submect to the osmosis process which allows incursion of water into the fiberglass. Consequently, since almost nothing can go wrong the only thing that needs a survey is the engine. Usually, if the engine runs you can tell by the amount of blue smoke whether or not it needs work, so you don't need a survey.

Here is a plan of action. You don't want to pay for a series of surveys on boats you don't buy. Instead, keep looking at boats without surveys. When you find a boat that you really want to buy, which you can find nothing wrong with, then before you sign the check, you make an offer to buy subject to survey. Call a surveyor and pay him the $250-300 he will want to survey it. Go with him to the survey and don't be disappointed if he finds nothing wrong with it. 

--

Capt. ALAN HUGENOT, AMS®, NAVAL ARCHITECT - MARINE SURVEYOR, Chairman, SNAME Motor Yachts & Service Craft Committee, ASA Sailing Instructor, Alanhugenot@madmariner.com



Landfall
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-10-06

When choosing a surveyor it is not a good practice to let your broker pick him or her out.  While working as a service manager I was amazed that the best surveyor in town was the least recommended by the brokers.  They preferred the guys with the pretty report with alot of pictures and very little clue about what makes a boat a good boat.  He could quote chapter and verse from the rules and regs but things like stability and windows that make blow in with heavy weather sure evaded his attention.



madmariner
Posts: 154
Joined: 2007-06-05

Great point. I learned that principle in the housing market - the hard way, of course - and it's very true.



gladpraise
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-08-06

It's important for the buyer to remember that a good survey is his (or her) best protection against spending money foolishly--and to let the surveyor do what is needed to make a complete inspection. When I bought my sailboat, I was so in love with the boat that I essentially told the surveyor not to bother looking very closely at the sails, lest it delay the sale another day. He didn't, but I had a very disappointing look at them a few months later when the Yankee jib tore in a moderate wind. In his loft a few days later, my newly acquired sailmaker took a pencil and shredded another big portion of the sailcloth, which had been weakened by ultraviolet rays during the years before I bought the boat, just to show me how fragile it was. I'm not sure how much I could have knocked off the purchase price if I'd let the surveyor do his job before I bought the boat, but at least I would have known what lay ahead.



gladpraise
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-08-06

It's important for the buyer to remember that a good survey is his (or her) best protection against spending money foolishly--and to let the surveyor do what is needed to make a complete inspection. When I bought my sailboat, I was so in love with the boat that I essentially told the surveyor not to bother looking very closely at the sails, lest it delay the sale another day. He didn't, but I had a very disappointing look at them a few months later when the Yankee jib tore in a moderate wind. In his loft a few days later, my newly acquired sailmaker took a pencil and shredded another big portion of the sailcloth, which had been weakened by ultraviolet rays during the years before I bought the boat, just to show me how fragile it was. I'm not sure how much I could have knocked off the purchase price if I'd let the surveyor do his job before I bought the boat, but at least I would have known what lay ahead.



alesianlarken
Posts: 2
Joined: 2008-10-20

Nice information...really survey is nice idea to collect different views of different people around the world..it makes lot of help during buying a boat or any thing else..

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alesian

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