This is a transcript of Mad Mariner's MadCast, the podcast that covers all aspects of boats and boating. In this segment, we interview Gordon Massingham, who wrote and directed Zeb: Schooner Life, a documentary about Zeb Tilton, a legendary sea captain from Martha's Vineyard with an equally legendary love of his schooner, the Alice S. Wentworth. He shares details of the story with Mad Mariner Contributing Editor Diane M. Byrne.

For the benefit of the listeners who don't know anything about Zeb Tilton, I thought I'd give just a quick rundown. The Tilton family was actually the second European family to settle Martha's Vineyard, and Zeb was born in 1866. And was one of a few children, actually, that went on to great fame. But in reference to the film, what was it about him that convinced you to focus on him? And when did you decide to make the film?

Massingham: Well, we decided to work on this film a couple of years ago. Our production company's been in business for over 30 years, and since we're not either in New York City or in Hollywood, it's always a challenge to have a company that continues to exist. So we're always looking for topics that we feel we can sell to an audience, and we can make our money back and continue in business. So for a number of years we've been looking for-- I should say we used to be located in Boston, but for ten years now we've been located on the island of Martha's Vineyard. So because we're in a major tourist area, we've been looking for a number of years for a topic that we could sell into this particular market. And we didn't want to do a travel log. And someone had done a program on lighthouses, which was kind of okay, but you know, not too much action at lighthouses. So we just considered a couple of ideas and had cast them aside. And then one day Polly Boroughs, who wrote Zeb's biography, just happened to show up at our door, because she had been looking for someone to make a film based on her book, and she learned that we were on the island, actually in the same town that she lives in. So she found her way to our door, and gave me a copy of her book, and said, "Hey, why don't you guys make a documentary about this?" So I read the book, and I thought Zeb was a fascinating character, and that there were a tremendous number of photographs in the book of him. And I learned that in his kind of early days of the mass media of the 1930s and 1940s, he was on a number of early radio shows, and in our research later, we found more than 100 newspaper articles written about him. So there was quite a bit of material about him, and we thought that he was a colorful character, quite funny. We thought this was a good subject, and this would satisfy our desire to make something for this, about this area. And we thought that Zeb really spoke to the character of this area, the nature of this area. Where, of course, moving everything by sea was very important for centuries, and sailing was-- is still-- was very important in the hearts of all the folks on the Vineyard.

You just mentioned that there were hundreds of articles about him, and that he was really a pretty colorful person, and definitely a character. What made him that? And what made him become so legendary?

Massingham: Well, you know, that was one of the things we started to ask ourselves. Because when we started to interview people, we thought that the old folks-- Zeb died in the 1950s, we thought there would be old folks around who would remember him, and tell us stories. But we were quite surprised to find young people, people in their 20s and 30s who had stories to tell about Zeb. So I think that speaks to the nature of legends, how stories about them get passed down from generation to generation. So I think he attained this legendary status, well, first of all, because he was quite charismatic. He was very witty and very funny, and that's what made him such a good interview. But more importantly, he continued to work the coastal trade, which was moving cargoes in a schooner, under sail, into the 1940s. And I think that he was probably the last coasting schooner operating in this area, which is kind of the South Coast of New England. He himself had worked all the way from the maritime provinces, all the way down to Philadelphia moving products around. But pretty much by the 30s and 40s trains were in existence, but still he continued to move stuff the old way, and do it in the old way, and enjoyed doing it the old way. And I think so that he became sort of a living example of our maritime heritage, a day when everything moved around the coast by schooner. So I think that's why: he was doing things the old way long after everyone else had pretty much consigned it to the dustbin of history.

You interviewed something like 30 people for this film. And some of them knew Zeb, other people were relating stories that friends and family had passed along. Who are some of the people who you think really conveyed what he was like? Was it people who personally knew him? Or was it people who had maybe second-hand stories? Or did it really cross all the different types of borders?

Massingham: He and his wife actually had 11 children, seven of which survived to adulthood. But unfortunately none of those children are still alive, but their children, many of their children are still alive. So we were able to interview a number of his grandchildren, and some of them were, you know, kind of shy, and didn't want to be on film, so we have to respect that. But there are others who were. And he loved his grandchildren. And he would always take them on trips if he could. And I think, it became as one of his grandchildren point out, when you got to be a certain age you were sent off on a trip with the schooner to see if you would adapt. And if you did adapt, he would take you all the time. So the kids had a great time in the summertime going along with Zeb as he delivered whatever cargoes he had to deliver. So he had firsthand accounts from these folks. And I think that added a great deal. And then we actually found a few other people who had been crew members on the boat who were not family members. So we got the firsthand accounts from those folks. And we actually were able to find one old newspaper reporter who had written a story about Zeb, and had interviewed some of his contemporaries. So we did have a number of eyewitness accounts, and then from that we also, I think, were able to talk to people, a number of historians, maritime historians, because they helped to number one, set the scene, what the world was like when Zeb grew up and decided to go into the schooner trade. And also we were very interested in giving people an understanding of the schooner, and its importance in American maritime history.

With all the interviews that you've done for the film, one of the things that I thought was really interesting is that you had some modern-day people essentially portray the voice of Zeb. Why did you decide to take that approach versus just featuring people just talking about him?

Massingham: Well, first of all, he was on a number of radio shows, and there was one very popular radio show back in the '30s and '40s called "We the People." And he had appeared on that show a number of times. Burgess Meredith was the host. So we looked far and wide trying to find recordings of those radio shows. And actually we did find some collectives who did have recordings of the shows, but it turned out none of them had a recording of a show that Zeb was on. So but we did have access to a lot of the newspaper articles. We found about 100 of them, and there were a number of direct quotes from Zeb in those newspaper articles, and we thought some of them were pretty interesting, and some of them were pretty funny. So we thought the best way to portray them was to have someone portray the voice of Zeb and tell those stories. And then we also used in a couple of other instances, too, we had some excerpts from the historian Henry Kittredge, who wrote a great deal about sea captains on the cape and islands, and wrote a great deal about clipper ships and schooners. So he had some, I thought, really very valuable insights. And so we had someone play the voice of Henry Kittredge. He, too, has passed away. And then also there was a gentleman who was a curator at Mystic Seaport for many years, but also a marine painter, and he had actually served as a mate on the Wentworth when he was a young man. And he had subsequently written a book about the coastal trade, and he had a nice little description of the Wentworth, which he said was his favorite vessel and his time at sea. So that was another voice that we also used. We also did a couple of recreations, too, that Zeb and all the Tilton families were famous for their singing voices, and they were known on the Vineyard as the singing Tilton's. And they lived up in Chilmark, which is here up-island, and Zeb operated his schooner out of Vineyard Haven. That was about 10 to 15 miles from certain parts of Chilmark down to Vineyard Haven, and of course, in those days they would think nothing of walking that. So and it was well-known that the Tilton's walking from Chilmark to Vineyard Haven would sing all the way. And people would hear them coming, and invite them into their homes and give them something to eat, or something to drink in return for a song. So that, of course, was never recorded anyway. So we recreated that to give people a sense of what that was like. And then Zeb, there were lots of pictures of Zeb and the Wentworth, and cargoes being loaded and unloaded. But Zeb was also famous for the parties he gave aboard the Wentworth. So that whenever he would come into port, folks would know the Wentworth was coming, and once they got the schooner unloaded, Zeb would cook up some muffins, or some gingerbread, and the folks would come down, and get on the Wentworth and have a party. And Zeb, of course, singing and telling stories was always the ultimate host. So we had no actual footage of that, or nothing really in the way of photographs of that, so that's another thing that we recreated. Our goal was really to give people a sense of what it was like, and when you've got the real thing, then of course, you always want to show that. But sometimes you have to use some filmmaking art and tricks in order to convey to people a sense of what it was like.

Let's talk about the Alice S. Wentworth. This was the schooner, as a reminder to the listeners, that Zeb gained fame on as her captain. The vessel was famous not just locally, but also nationally. You had mentioned that he was using the boat for cargo service up and down the coast. But just put into perspective on the national level how that made such a big impact.

Massingham: Well, the Wentworth had an existence after Zeb passed away. Late in life his eyesight went bad, and the Wentworth was sold to another very noted sea captain by the name of Parker Hall [ph?], who was famous for sailing single-handed. He sailed the Wentworth to Nantucket, and then to Gloucester, and actually that trip from Nantucket to Gloucester was his last trip. When he arrived at Gloucester, he was too sick to continue, so the Wentworth stayed in Gloucester for a while, was purchased by a gentleman from Maine, and it was taken back to Maine where she had been rebuilt in the 1920s. And then it actually had a life in Maine of coasting. At the time they were cutting off lumber on Vinyl Haven in North Haven Islands, and the Wentworth was a conveyance that brought that lumber to the mill. So it worked there for a number of years still hauling cargo, in this case, mostly cordwood, and wood for lumber. And then she went into what's known as the windjammer trade. And interestingly enough, we met someone who actually had been a passenger on the Wentworth when she was in the windjammer trade. And I don't know folks who are listening who have been on a windjammer. I've certainly been on windjammers out of Maine, are actually quite comfortable these days. But in the early days of the Wentworth, I was told, what they did was they just took the hold that formally had been used to load bricks or coal or lumber, and just laid down some straw on the floor, and hung some blankets down the middle of the hold, so that the men could sleep on one side, and the women could sleep on the other side. And this is the way-- almost like camping, that people went on a windjammer cruise in the early days up in Maine. So she worked there for a while, then was purchased by someone who ran her out of Wood's Hole doing some wind jamming in Nantucket Sound and that area. And then finally she sank during the winter on the dock at Wood's Hole. And I guess, the person running the windjammer cruises was kind of pressed for cash, so they sold it. And Anthony Athanas, who owned Anthony's Pier 4 in Boston, a pretty famous waterfront restaurant, purchased the Wentworth and brought her up to be outside of his restaurant. He always had a couple of old vessels tied up outside the restaurant, and have been there for many years. I think Anthony essentially passed away. I think his sons now run the restaurant. But now while all of this was happening, and this actually was in the movie, because this came to light after we finished the film, but a determination was made that the Wentworth should be saved. So Senator Kennedy took the lead, and got passed through Congress some, I understand, something near $270,000 to restore the Wentworth. And this was in the early 1970s. And the money was appropriated, plan was made. They were going to load the Wentworth on a barge, because they didn't think she was sufficiently seaworthy to be sailed up to Maine, and she was to be restored to the North End Shipyard in Rockland. Well, they were just waiting for the weather to-- for the springtime storms to pass, and for the weather to get good before they undertook this. And there was an untimely storm in early April, and the Wentworth got destroyed at the dock where she stood. She was actually-- had moved from Anthony's Pier 4 to a neighboring dock. So she was destroyed at the dock, and the Coast Guard thought it was a hazard to navigation, so she was actually taken apart and taken off to the landfill.

That's too bad.

Massingham: So that was the end of the Wentworth. Now if she had been restored, if that plan had gone forward and she had been restored, she would have only been the second vessel in the history of the United States to be restored by Federal money. And the first, of course, is the USS Constitution. So to me, this gives you an idea of the esteem with which the Wentworth was held.

Let's talk about the schooners, 'cause you actually interviewed some schooner experts, in this-- people in and around New England. I thought that was also pretty interesting, because my assumption was that you thought that people who didn't know much about maritime history in general, and even specifically schooners, would be intrigued by this film. So how do you balance the need to inform the newbies, so to speak, against the need to still keep people who know that history inside and out, you know, riveted to your film?

Massingham: We start to make a film, we start out to make the best film we can possibly make, and that's to satisfy ourselves that this is a good film. And the book on which the film was based, really doesn't get into schooners as a class of vessel. It really gets a lot into the history of the Vineyard during Zeb's time. And we were less interested in that, and less interested in the issue of schooners. So we decided to concentrate on that. There's little of that in the book, but that was our own sort of take on this whole story. So I hope that we put it in terms that people can understand. And I think that even, as you called them "newbies," I can tell, because I've been to many screenings of the film with live audiences, that people respond very well to this, and I think that one of the key elements is Captain Doug Lee, who's the captain of the schooner Heritage, that operates in the windjammer trade out of Rockland, Maine, and Captain Lee is just an unbelievable fount of information about schooners. And in fact, he actually designed his vessel, the Heritage, which was built, I believe in the late 1970s, he based the design on the Wentworth. The Heritage is slightly bigger than the Wentworth, but when you look at the plans of the Wentworth, and you look at the plans of the schooner Heritage, you could see they're very precisely matched. Well, Doug, like I say, is a walking fount of information about schooners, and he's able to quote chapter and verse, not only of vessels like the Wentworth, but then as time went on, they built bigger three"” the Wentworth was a two-master. They build three-master schooners, and four-master schooners. Five, six, and finally one seven-master schooner. So as he goes through the names of this, and we show the vessels, people in the audience are really awed. And then we finally get to Doug telling us about the largest wooden vessel ever built and sailed, which was the six-master schooner, Wyoming, and we have this incredible, beautiful picture of her. And when he's talking about it, we start to show the front jib of the Wyoming, and he talks about it, we keep pulling back and pulling back and pulling back until you see the enormity of this vessel, and that was, you know, built up in Maine. And so I think that everyone responds to that very nicely, whether they know a lot about schooners or not. And from talking to people after screenings, a lot of people say like, "Well, I never really understood what the difference between a schooner and a ship was, and now I do." So maybe we're enlightening some people. But also I think that when we embarked on this, we knew that there was a good audience for anything related to maritime history. And we thought that audience was under-served, and that this would work very well there. And I can tell you it does work very well. We've had a number of public screenings, and we're always grateful to get an audience, but we're always amazed to see when we show up at the screening, that there's a huge line at the door, and people end up getting turned away because every seat is full.

When you were making the film, was there anything about Zeb himself, or even schooners in general that struck you and made you take a step back and say, "Wow, I never really knew that! That's really interesting."

Massingham: Well, you know, when we talk about sea stories, I know that I'm very fond of sea stories, and lately the whole issue of pirates has been very big in the mass media. And then there's that wonderful series of novels by Patrick O'Brien about the British Navy. And all of these things are things that take place on the High Seas, and coasting was a totally different thing. Because it took place close to shore. We had one gentleman who was an expert on sea captains, talk about how the"” he calls them the "deep water men" always scoffed at the schooner captains, because they called them the "apple tree fleet," because they were never out of sight of shore. But he also goes on to prove they had to have a great deal of skill, because usually they had very small crews, and they had to do pretty remarkable things. I don't know if you're familiar with the coastline of Massachusetts, but to me one of the most remarkable things that Zeb was able to do was pick up a load of coal in Taunton, Mass. Now if you know where Taunton is, you know it's considerably inland, it's connected to Narragansett Bay by the Taunton River. But he was able to navigate up this river, I'm guessing it's 20 or 25 miles, to pick up a load of coal. Now he did this without an engine of any kind, and that was not the only river he navigated up. I know he was on the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot up in Maine. So there's quite a bit of skill to be able to do this, to navigate up rivers and to get along docks and to unload cargoes when you had no engine, and you had to do it all by sail. So I think that was the most remarkable thing, that kind of passed my understanding. And you see that this was extremely important to people. And it was all the cargo that-- and you see it around here in this area, all the cobblestones and the streets of Nantucket were delivered by Zeb Tilton. He delivered the lumber to Nantucket to build the Coast Guard station. The high school here in Martha's Vineyard was built by bricks that were brought over by the Wentworth. So think of how everything moved along the coast under these vessels that were usually center boarders, and usually had a shallow draft, so that they could pretty much get anywhere. That's a pretty interesting story that I think needed to be told.

I want to let people know that the film is still being screened. As a matter of fact, it's premiering in Nantucket on June 10th, and that there'll be other screenings. Are there any other areas that it's going to be screened in the coming weeks, and how can people learn more about the specific locations?

Massingham: The best thing to do is go to the website, which is zebtilton.com, and there's a section there that talks about all the screenings that are coming up. I'll give you an idea of some that are coming up in the near future. There's going to be one at the Whaling Museum in New Bedford in August. The Cape Cod National Seashores is showing at their Visitor Center in October. In September, the Provincetown Schooner Festival is going to be showing it at the movie theater in Provincetown. There's going to be a screen this summer at the Vineyard at the Catherine Cornell theater. And our most recent screening at the Cape Cinema was such a success that the owner there is looking for a date to show it again. So the best thing is check zebtilton.com, that'll show you the upcoming screenings, and if, of course, you want to have your own copy, well, you can order a DVD there as well.